Transcript (Unedited)
Announcer
Welcome to the Cowboy Up Podcast where talk is all about the west. This episode is brought to you by White Stallion Ranch and produced by Cowboy Spirit USA. Are you aware of the history of your neighborhood, town, city? Have you experienced all it has to offer? Tucsonan Tom Heath saddles up to the ranch to speak with Russell and Allen about how he finally began to explore his community and how that’s impacted his life.
H. Alan Day
Good morning. How are you doing today?
Russel True
Good.
H. Alan Day
Another happy day here at Westallion Ranch.
Russel True
Yeah, no kidding. So you and I share both being graduates of the University of Arizona and of course, that’s right in the center of Tucson. We talk about Tucson, but I don’t guess we’ve ever done a podcast just about Tucson.
H. Alan Day
About darn time.
Russel True
Yeah. And we really haven’t talked about downtown Tucson. Of course, Tucson sometimes argues it’s the oldest continually inhabited city in the US. St. Augustine, Florida, and some other places get their higher up. But it seems like today we have the perfect person to talk about what’s happening in the old Pueblo, as Tucson is often called. Tom Heath. He wears many hats within the community. He’s a loan officer with Nova Home Loans. He’s been doing that for almost 25 years. Head of the mortgage Guidance group, tom is also an active promoter of financial literacy in the community. That’s always important. It seems like that’s an absence in so many people. He’s a resource for information about Tucson’s urban development. Advocate for local businesses they need that. Currently serves on the board of downtown Tucson Partnership. Sits on the steering committee for what we talk about so often the Tucson Festival of Books and Local First Arizona. And every Sunday, I think at 11:00 a.m.
Russel True
You can hear Tom on 99.1 FM as the host of Life Along the Streetcar. And there he’s talking about all kinds of topics that impact Tucson’s urban core. His new book is My Life Along the Streetcar. I think it’s based a lot on that radio show, which is also a podcast. So, Tom, welcome.
Tom Heath
Thank you. It’s absolutely the beautiful setting to walk into this studio. It’s like a vacation just coming out here. So thank you for that.
H. Alan Day
Well, I get happy every time I come out here, so I agree with you. But it’s great to have you here because I consider myself a native Tucson and my mother graduated U of A in 1925 and she was quick to send me there when I was thinking about college. And so I’ve called Tucson home, but proud to call it home. But I think you fit the mold better even than I so happy to have you here today.
Tom Heath
It’s a pleasure.
Russel True
So are you a native?
Tom Heath
No, I moved to Tucson in 93. I grew up in Ohio in the Midwest and moved out here for a short period of time and then realized you don’t have to shovel very much snow, so decided I’m not going to go home. We’ll go back.
H. Alan Day
A real revelation.
Tom Heath
Yeah, it was nice. I stopped to wear hand mittens to open my car door, but it’s better than the shoveling snow.
Russel True
Well, I’m sitting here because of a late spring blizzard in Denver, and that tipped my parents. So there’s a lot of us, I think, who weather drew us to Tucson and in some cases, away from other places.
H. Alan Day
What really drew you to tucson? What caused you to stay, was there?
Tom Heath
Well, what drew me was I was a college graduate, no job, no future, and a girlfriend moving to Arizona. So that’s what brought me out here.
H. Alan Day
She drugged you? Kicking and streaming.
Tom Heath
I think it’s the other way around. I think she was coming out here and she’s like, oh, you’re still here. Okay, so I stuck around for a while, and then after a while, it just becomes home and you put down roots. And when you think you’re going to head back, you realize that I’m actually am back. I am home now.
Russel True
So did you sort of two different tucson visits? Sort of. Did you get interested in the tucson community and the whole history in downtown? There’s a lot of aspects. Did that draw you or did you just try and get to work?
Tom Heath
Yeah, it was about work. It was making money when I came out here. And then you get into your bubble. You got your friends, your activities, and I honestly knew very little about Tucson. It was a great place to go outdoors. It was beautiful weather, all that good stuff that people think about. I’d heard stories, but I really didn’t understand the history and culture of Tucson for decades. Unfortunately, a lot of us can live.
H. Alan Day
Here a long time and still not understand. That so good on you for getting interested.
Tom Heath
You wake up one morning, you find out something about your hometown, your adopted hometown, that is just something you love and you didn’t know about it for 20 years. You’re like, oh, perhaps there’s other things out there. And there were.
H. Alan Day
Well, our notes talk about Tucson being a foodie city and if one town could be that our mexican food and our hispanic food makes us that. You want to talk a bit about that?
Tom Heath
I do love food, so I’d be glad to talk about food. I think tucson has gotten a really good reputation, you’ll see, even because of Linda Ronstadt’s new book, you saw that the new york times posted a cheese crisp recipe, which was really simple. It was cheese tortilla and green chilies. And their directions were, this is not complicated, but you got to find that tortilla. And that’s what you find in Tucson was that homemade tortilla. So even the simplest things that we take for granted are international news stories. Sometimes for me, the history of the gastronomy goes all the way back to what kind of got me into the show in the first place. The lifelong streetcar was a place called Mission Garden. They’re at the base of a mountain and they’re recreating that 4200 years worth of continuous agricultural history that puts us in the running for one of the longest inhabited places in the country. And because they’re replicating that, they’re bringing foods, grains, materials to market in a very
Tom Heath
small scale that we wouldn’t have without them. So our local chefs are able to use grains and fruits and things of that nature that are really part of our history and culture. And I think that’s a big reason why people look at our culinary scene and say, not only is it good, but it’s steeped in a lot of history.
Russel True
I’ve been here 58 years, Tucson. And of course, Alan went to UVA, but he was also out, a long ways out at the Lazy Bee. And so when we went to get Western clothes, we went to the Corral right downtown near the Fox Theater. And there was Levees and Steinfelds and hockeymes and the department stores, the names that longtime Tucsons all know. And then we watched them all move to the malls and then Tucson just turn into basically lawyer offices and government. And it really was like so many abandoned, lost downtowns. It’s not that at all anymore. It’s a pretty vibrant place and it’s got a lot going on. Lots of restaurants, bars, et cetera. I don’t have any sense. I’ve never been on the streetcar. Did the streetcar is it concurrent or was it a catalyst?
Tom Heath
I think it was a catalyst. There’s always different ways to think about this. But if you look at a heat map where all the development is happening in downtown, we have the RIA Nuevo district, which is helping with some of the financing, and we have the streetcar route and that goes through downtown, up through the university. And if you look at the heat map where those two intersect, that’s where the majority of the development is happening. So there’s really no doubt in my mind that it’s a catalyst. And I think if you talk to some of the developers they wouldn’t have done some of the work that they’re doing on the west side of Tucson or with the student housing in downtown unless there was that permanency of the rails put in there. So I’m not a professional by any sense, but that’s my opinion of it. And I think it bears out when you look at the facts.
H. Alan Day
Well, I think anybody, including me, that hasn’t been the full route all 3 miles of the streetcar needs to do it. And I put myself on that list and I’m going to do it, and I’m going to do it soon because that’s a ride that everybody should go back and forth.
Russel True
Somebody was just telling me we should just go do that together.
H. Alan Day
Absolutely.
Russel True
But I saw that Tom sometimes does tours do you do those?
Tom Heath
Yeah. The show started in 2017, and from that, people start to ask you about what’s happening in downtown. And I’m in the real estate business by trade. I’m in the mortgage business. And a lot of real estate agents are inviting people to live in Tucson and they’re like, hey, what should we tell them to do? And we started got a couple of business partners and we started doing tours to give them some idea. These are not tours that we were charging for, just really informational, community service types that grew. And we started doing public tours since COVID we scaled way back. We’ve got a few other products that we’re doing, so we do them more on a one off basis. So, like, if the two of you were coming downtown to ride on the streetcar, we might be able to reactivate the tours for you.
H. Alan Day
How much are you commercial and how much real home?
Tom Heath
I’m all residential. Yeah, I do residential. That’s 25 years at this point. And I don’t really have a lot of skill sets, so I just stick with what I know and that gets me through.
H. Alan Day
What’s the commercial status in Tucson now? Commercial, not residential.
Tom Heath
That’s sort of outside of my area of expertise. I can tell you in downtown we’ve got vacancies, but we also have a lot of people that are interested in filling those vacancies. And I think, like every urban city across the country, we’re trying to figure out what to do with office space and how that might be repurposed either as housing or retail or something else, because it does not look like right now that we’re going to need as many offices as we did in 2019.
H. Alan Day
People are just working at home more.
Tom Heath
Yeah, they’re working at home. They’re working remotely either from home or a lot of people are moving into Co working spaces so that they can have the sense of community, but not the obligation of the lease.
Russel True
Well, I think you talk to anywhere, whether it’s Manhattan or Tucson, that’s a longer term trend. How it goes. I bought a horse from a guy who in rural Wilcox, Arizona. And Wilcox to start with is pretty rural, and he was in rural Wilcox, and he worked for a manufacturing business in New Jersey. He says, I have been there twice, and he’d been working there something like two, three years. So, I mean, that is the the way it’s going, you know?
Tom Heath
Russell I always like to make notes of things when I, when I, when I hear something, I’m like, you know, I’ve never said that, but I’ve never said I bought a horse from a guy. I’ve never used that phrase in my life.
Russel True
That’s a phrase I’ve made quite a few times.
H. Alan Day
I’m wrong on this, but he owns 160 horses, give or take. And I take my hat off to that. And more than that, he shoes most of them. He can’t find horseshoers and so he shoes more horses than I ever want to see. And I take my hat off to that because I’ve done a lot of horseshoeing and somebody that does that much, I’m in awe of this.
Tom Heath
When someone has discernible skills, I’m always impressed.
Russel True
Well, I’m like you. I’ve got that narrow skill set. I haven’t wandered very far from here. So growing up here and talking to a lot of people who predate me and have even longer histories, they think one of the big tragedies in Tucson was the building of the community center and the destruction of the barrio. Do you have a thought on that? Do you agree? Is that true?
Tom Heath
That’s a hard statement to dissect in a short period of time, but there definitely was, it seems like an intent by the city leaders at the time to bury our history and our culture under concrete, not just figuratively but literally. And I think the barrio was very economically depressed and I don’t think that was a vision that the people at the time wanted for Tucson and I think it’s horrific.
H. Alan Day
They didn’t know how to bring it back so they just buried it, covered it.
Tom Heath
Yeah, that’s my perspective of it. And I think when you talk about economic development now you have people that are still connected to that and then they’re scared and then rightfully so that what are we going to lose in the name of progress? I think we’re doing it differently. I think we’re doing it better. It might be a little too little too late, but next to the new fire station, when the city put that up, they put a memorial to the barrio, talked about the significance of its history and culture. A new apartment complex that went in after they removed some of the redevelopment. I just saw this actually about two weeks ago. They put in a nice tribute and have listed all the names of the people and businesses that were occupying that space. So to me we’re recognizing that our future is not built in spite of our past, it’s because of our past. And I think developers are seeing that and they’re trying to tie more into that history and culture as we build that foundation.
H. Alan Day
Where would you take it forward from there as far as where we’re going as a community?
Tom Heath
Physically, I think we have to go up. I think we need more density and I think we have to go higher. When you look at a streetcar or anything like that across the globe, density is an important factor of that. From a history and culture standpoint, I think we just need to keep doing what we’re doing, which is balancing the history with the path that we’re going. In the city of Gastronomy, it’s a big economic boon for our area and we get this huge amounts of millions of dollars of tourism, but it’s built on the fact that Mission Garden is replicating 4200 years and really beyond that of agricultural history. So I think that’s where we go forward is we go forward by embracing our past. I think I’m going to coin that phrase. I don’t know if anybody’s used that, but I’m going to use that.
Russel True
Well, just as an observer. I think that
Russel True
Rio Nuevo, which was.
Tom Heath
A horrible failure.
Russel True
Almost a scandal, I guess it was, and then it ends up being this model that other places in the US. Look to. And Fletcher McCusker and Mark Irvin, who I know and some other folks, worked really hard and did something that I think really is a huge driver for what’s happened in Tucson. I sat on the Visit Tucson board for years and they said, well, we can’t get a convention center to work because we have no hotel rooms and we’ll never get hotel rooms. And the old Holiday Inn, it was shuttered and it’ll never so to see what they’ve done is, I mean, all these new hotels and the restaurants and all the stuff that supports it. Tucson’s done a good job and they seem to be doing a better job of grasping that history, which is pretty unique.
H. Alan Day
Time for a break.
Russel True
Yes, time for a break. But it’s going to be a great one because we’ve got stuart Rosebrook is going to update us on what’s new at our favorite magazine, True West.
H. Alan Day
Well, I always want to hear what Stewart has to say. He’s great to be on.
Russel True
Yeah. Go Stewart.
Speaker 5
Well, thank you, Russell. Thank you, Alan. You guys are once again telling more stories. We learn more here by accident than most places by design. And if you really want an education, a humorous education, an illustrious education of great education, you call on the man right now. The man, Stuart Rosebrook, editor of True West magazine. Welcome to the program, Stewart.
Speaker 6
Thank you, Stan. It’s great to be back here on Cowboy Up podcast. And we are going to have some fun today talking about the next issue of True West magazine. It’s our July August issue of our 70th year in publication and we have an exclusive cover story from Paul Andrew Hutton called Kit Carson and the Conquest of California. Paul has been an advisory historian for the magazine for two decades and he is working on his biggest book yet, which is going to be called The Undiscovered Country, which will be published by Dutton later this year. And one of the subjects in this book is Kit Carson, and he wrote us an extended feature length article for this issue. And I think everybody picks up the issue will really enjoy this feature. From Paul Hutton on kit Carson and who really was quite he really lived up to his reputation as a frontiersman and was really a key to conquest of California and our successes out west. He really was one of the great trailblazers and I think that people will find
Speaker 6
this article very interesting.
Speaker 5
I was amazed.
Speaker 6
Yes, he really was one of the most amazing of the trailblazers and fur trappers. He went west at a very young age and adapted to the culture and renew the trails backwards and forwards and without a doubt was one of the toughest men, pound for pound, anybody who was out on the American frontier between the 1820s and the 1860s. Truly remarkable individual. And I think Paul Hutton puts a great new light on Kit Carson. The issue has also got our great feature on railroad towns and adventures you can take out west. I love riding about and having people travel west. Peter Corbett wrote our feature this year on our great railroad towns where you can go and immerse yourself in history and ride some of the great historic trains out west. I think that’s a great way to spend part of your summer traveling. And we also have bass Reeves is going to be back in the spotlight here soon. The great American deputy us. Marshal. He’s going to be a focus of one of Taylor Sheridan’s new western series this fall.
Speaker 6
But in this issue, Johnny Boggs has written an article called Tracking Bass Reuse from Fort Smith to Muskogee, Oklahoma. And that’s a great way to get out there if you’re looking for a summer tour to do and go where history happened. You can follow Johnny’s trail across Missouri and Oklahoma and Arkansas. And then we got a great little feature in Cheyenne, Wyoming, which I think is a great town to visit in the summer as well. I think you probably could still get some tickets if you want to go up there for the daddy of them all, the big Cheyenne Frontier Days rodeo. It’s a great time. Other big things in this issue we got Phil Spangenberger writes his regular column on the trap on shooting from the hip. He’s got a very interesting column on the 1873 trapdoor, Springfield. And then I wrote a piece in there, in this issue called did the Devil Make Me Do It? Dark humor on the trail to the Golden State, which follows not too long after the treaty with Mexico, the gold rush was announced. And
Speaker 6
as everyone rushed across the country around the world of California, there was a lot of social commentary on everybody rushing to California in search of gold in their bonanza. And it’s a very interesting look at how humorous and satirists looked at this rush for gold. And it wasn’t all positive. There was a lot of cautionary tales that our commentators and writers were writing about. And even some of our earliest American illustrators made some strong commentary about maybe the Tom Foolery of rushing across the country, the Panama Canal, or even getting on a ship to go to California. So really unique piece for true west.
Speaker 5
You know what? There is a problem with true west. You know what it is. Let me tell you what it is. I get a number of magazines and I kind of look through them and see if there’s something I’m interested in. But you know what happens with True West? There are just too many articles that I want to read.
Speaker 6
Well, that’s a good reason to save them and come back to them.
Speaker 5
That’s exactly what I do. I really do. And this particular, like you said, I’ve got about three or four little marky things around where I’m going to get back to that. But it was just full of good stuff. And so how do you guys do this? You are really good at this. Hey, tell people how to finally do a smart thing for this summer and get more True West magazines.
Speaker 6
Well, pick up an issue at your local newsstand or go [email protected] and subscribe. We have a new app also in which you can read this issue for free. The app, it’s one of those QR codes that you can scan, and if they pick up this issue on the newsstand, they can read it for free. And it’s a great incentive to read the magazine. And we’ve got a new digital platform that you can read on your phone. And so if you subscribe, you can read it in hard copy, you can read it on your phone, you can read it on your computer or your tablet. So we’re really trying to reach people on every platform that they like to read their magazines and newspapers. And we really think at True West that it’s a magazine for all generations. And we think that our technology allows people to enjoy it while at home or on the go. And we look forward to everybody’s feedback, and we really try to dig deep into the archives and work with our authors who are contributors, live around the world, and trying to bring
Speaker 6
the best stories and the best features and the best historical photography and travel tips to our readers every month.
Speaker 5
Well, that’s what you do, and you do it well.
Tom Heath
We appreciate you.
Speaker 5
Thank you much.
Speaker 6
Thank you. We’ll see you next month.
H. Alan Day
Well, Tom, we mentioned earlier the University of Arizona is an interesting story about the first female professor at the university. Do you want to come forward with that?
Tom Heath
I love this one. My favorite stories. We covered the legacy of Louise Fukar Marshall early on and the book that we ended up writing, My Life Along the Streetcar focuses on some interviews that were important to us as a show, but also important to the community. And this was a no brainer for putting it in there. She came to Tucson around the turn of the 20th century, so early 19 hundreds, and was the first. Some debate whether she was the first or one of the first, but very early female professor at the University of Arizona. And she came from an entrepreneurial background. So when she saw the U of A and she saw downtown, she saw a bunch of empty land and she started buying up the land just outside of the main gate. And her passion was to generate properties, commercial and residential that would then put money back into the coffers for the university to be able to use for scholarships for female students to come to the U of A. She passed at some point without the heirs and had created.
Tom Heath
She’d gotten married to a gentleman named Tom Marshall and they created the Marshall Foundation, which still owns most of what we call Main Gate Square. And to this day, they still take a portion of their assets and they donate it back to Pima County nonprofits and to scholarships for people in Arizona. And this is the foresight of a woman in the 19 hundreds that her legacy is still impacting us. Millions of dollars in our community to this day. And in true West, Tucson can’t just have a good story. We always have to have a little bit of drama. She’s also known because she shot her husband. Shot him five times.
H. Alan Day
He must have done a real baddie.
Tom Heath
Well, there was some debate as to what he was doing, but he definitely was having the appearance of having an affair. She believed she was being poisoned by him. And her trial ended up going down to Nogalis because she was so popular, because she’s giving away money and he’s sleeping around. So there wasn’t a lot of sympathy for him. She ended up being acquitted. And again, this is a little bit outside of my this is oral history, so sometimes the facts are a little bit skewed. But she was one of the first to employ this idea of temporary insanity where she believed he was going to kill her and she acted in sort of like self defense. And as the newspaper read the next day, courtroom erupts and cheers as jury quickly frees. Miss Marshall.
H. Alan Day
Sounds like an old west movie to me.
Tom Heath
That’s what I’m saying. We go by Main Gate Square every day and we see these restaurants and hotels and all these businesses, and we don’t really fully understand
Tom Heath
how important that was to our history and our culture. And those, to me, are the stories that I love to share on the show because to me, they’re hidden gems. I mean, some people know that story, but I didn’t until I got a chance to talk with Jane over at the Marshall Foundation.
Russel True
Well, I’ve heard, of course, of the Marshall Foundation and its huge impact for all these years. I didn’t know the story behind it.
Russel True
All this with your book, My Life Along the Streetcar, and all the podcastsradio shows you’ve done, what’s one of the things that surprised you the most?
Tom Heath
Man, there’s a lot that surprises me besides my lack of knowledge of Tucson. I think the thing that I’m impressed by every time I do a show is how lucky we are to have such caring people in our community that are concerned about where we are, where we’ve been, where we’re going. There’s just no shortage of people with the right intentions doing things for the right reasons. And that to me, is remarkable. I started this as like a year long project in 2017. I thought, okay, there’s twelve good stories I can get out of this, or twelve months with their stories. I just finished episode 250 something. Talked to over 200 people and I haven’t even really scratched the surface. And as you said earlier, it’s 3 miles. I’m doing a three mile stretch of Tucson and all of my stories are centered around that. So that the fact that we have this much happening, these many people making change, it’s just absolutely that to me is remarkable.
H. Alan Day
Can you pick an event that would stand out going forward with what’s happening?
Tom Heath
Like a time and place or like either?
H. Alan Day
Your choice?
Tom Heath
Well, I’ve talked about it, but I think Mission Garden to me is a really good example of that balance. There’s so many other things. I think one of the fun stories that I like to share is, you know, we’ve got El Charo Cafe, which is the longest family run Mexican restaurant in the United States. It’s based here in Tucson. It was started by a woman named Monica Flynn in 1922. Her niece Carlota took over in 72. So two women have run this restaurant dynasty for over 100 years. But Monica came because her father was working on the cathedral as a stonemason. He got his training in France. So the country’s longest running Mexican family restaurant was started by the French. I think that’s an interesting Tucson story.
H. Alan Day
If you live in Tucson and you don’t know about El Charo, you don’t live in Tucson because it’s an institution.
Tom Heath
It is. And again, it’s run by women. We’ve had such strong women in Tucson. Seal Peterson was another individual that shaped our community in so many ways. Besides just being a retailer, we’ve been very lucky to have strong people. It’s hard to pick a moment. It’s just hard to pick a moment. But we’re fortunate to have the right people doing good things.
H. Alan Day
Okay, so is growth good? And if we could stop time right here and just stay where we are, would you do that? Or are you happy with the direction we’re going?
Tom Heath
I think growth is inevitable.
H. Alan Day
Yeah, but I’m asking good or bad? Well, inevitable, it doesn’t take sides.
Tom Heath
Good or bad? I think it can be both. And if we’re doing it the way we’re doing it now, I believe it’s good. The way we did it before I don’t think was good. So if we’re going to continue to grow and bring people in that can do what we’re doing and elevating our history and our culture, I think that’s a good way to grow. But if we’re. Going to bring people in that are going to take that down and bring in we’ve seen this in small towns across the country. Mid sized towns across the country becomes a mecca for national chains and things of that nature. And I don’t think that’s a good thing for Tucson if we grow in that direction, which we currently aren’t. So I think growth is good with the caveat. That the way we’re doing it. Is that fair enough?
Russel True
So to that point, I don’t get off the ranch as much as sometimes I’d like to. We have an informal group of business folks that have breakfast once a month and they all are just huge fans of Tucson. They share all your enthusiasm, less of your knowledge and just really good solid people. And they all are concerned about Tucson and they’re worried about
Russel True
the crime, they’re worried about the homelessness and they’re worried about the business climate, the friendliness to people creating and sustaining a business. Any comments on that?
Tom Heath
I would imagine that the group that you’re talking to are pretty savvy business individuals and I would defer to them as far as those specific issues. But I think what we have in Tucson is very special. It is not without its challenges. We’re a city, any other urban city. We’re going to have issues with homeless, we’re going to have issues with fentanyl, we’re going to have issues with crime. Those are typical how we respond to them. We put a lot of that burden on mayor council in the city and whether they’re doing the best job. I personally think different things could be done. But at the end of the day, we’re a community and if we’re going to fix these things, we’re going to fix them through a community. And unfortunately, a lot of the people that are having these concerns, they operate within the city but they live in the county. They don’t live within the confines of Tucson. So it’s hard then to get them to make changes.
Russel True
I think our breakfast group, there’s nobody they’re all worried about it. So you just nailed it. Well, I mean, they love the city. I’ll say my new favorite city that isn’t Tucson is San Antonio, Texas. I’d never been there before and I was awed by it. And they’ve grasped their history with both hands and done a super job. I think Tucson, I think, looks that way toward them as an example and they should continue to do that because Tucson has that same incredible history. One of the things that the Presidio.
Tom Heath
You like the Presidio that’s what started this whole thing was the Presidio museum.
Russel True
Yeah, it’s fantastic, isn’t it? And
Russel True
I just bought a book. I got it yesterday. That was the Spanish frontier because I feel like we all know the Spanish were here but we don’t really know what went on when they were here. Talk about the Presidio a little.
Tom Heath
Well, it’s another one of those stories we’d love to share. We’re talking about the tour because the Spanish, they were moving north and they had their missionaries and they were protecting their missionaries from the native population which clearly weren’t as happy to have the Spanish here. So they’re building these presidios all along. And the person who we consider the founding father of Tucson who was bringing the Spanish fort to Tucson name was Hugo O’Connor. Really? Spanish name there. So another one of these interesting stories but he was an employee of the Spanish army and he chose a place that was right along the flowing Santa Cruz River and built a presidio and that became sort of the foundation of modern Tucson. And we have history with like Father Keno brought a lot of vegetation over. In fact, in the Mission Garden they’ve been able to find some of the original trees and clone them. So inside of Mission Garden there are orchard trees that were brought over and actual relatives
Tom Heath
of what Father Keno brought. Our Spanish history is undeniable.
H. Alan Day
Yeah, but there’s kind of an interesting fact. The Spaniards came in and they were the originators and all that and then there was a 300 year gap before the Americans came in and said, okay, we’re going to settle. And the Spaniards had been here for 300 years before the US. Ever took notice of this and started to put US. Citizens here. So kind of interesting what happened in that 300 years and why was there a gap like that?
Tom Heath
I’ll do some research and I’ll have you on the show and we’ll figure it out. Those are the stories I love to uncover.
Russel True
Well, I think part of it is the Apaches were kind of tough. There wasn’t a whole lot of infrastructure and there wasn’t a whole lot of reason to be here. And Apaches make your life pretty miserable. I mean, for example, there was a presidio at what is today called Fairbank, which is a ghost town near Tombstone and they had the presidio up there in the same era as Tucson. 1770s.
Tom Heath
Right. I think it’s found in 74.
Russel True
Yeah. So right. A couple of years before the Declaration, which is coming up, of course and they had to go down to the San Pedro to get the water and the Apaches just they knew where the water was too and every time the priest would go down to get water they killed them. And I think they were only there three years until they ran out of priests and had to move. So Tucson and then Tubach.
Tom Heath
Tubach, yeah, that was where they were. Tubach. And they moved north into the Tucson area.
H. Alan Day
Well, and then when they kind of got run out not really run out, but they pulled back as far as Tubac and then kind of settled again going north again at a later time.
Tom Heath
Yeah. And all of the geopolitical events at the time with the French and the Mexican, the United States, the Spanish, all of this stuff. That’s why we have such that history of that Wild West. I think we just have a lot of people fighting over this area and it’s led to a very interesting sort of development of a mix of cultures.
Russel True
And what is it? How many flags flew over Tucson? Have flown over Tucson?
Tom Heath
I don’t know the answer to that.
Russel True
Okay. Because they talk about it. I just was down at the county building. So it’s Spanish, Mexican, Confederate, US. I’m missing one. I think maybe there’s two different Spanish because we were very briefly Confederate. Which is why the Picaccio Peak battle and then a loosely based movie that was shot in part here. Ronald Reagan’s last outpost. Sort of very loosely based on that. Well talk about the mission gardens. You brought it up a couple of times.
Russel True
Is it open? Most of the time people can visit.
Tom Heath
Yeah. I would check out their website. It’s part of Tucson. The Friends of Tucson’s birthplace. Their hours will vary a little bit with the holiday, the summer weather. I believe they’re open. I want to say Tuesday through Saturday with Sunday. Monday is closed. Typically, there’s a $5 suggested donation. But if you don’t have that, they’ll bring in they love to bring schools in. Have the kids learn about this type of agriculture in that history. And it’s run by volunteers. So what I tell everyone and this has got to be very careful because it is run by volunteers. So when you get into the Mission Garden, it’s really important that you don’t sign anything or get on any list because you’ll end up being a volunteer. That’s how they get you. So be careful.
H. Alan Day
Avoid that. Like the play.
Tom Heath
Be careful. Just put your name on here. Next thing you know, you’re a docent.
Russel True
What? Don’t be too effusive about how good it is. So the Santa Cruz presidio is located hugh O’Connor locates Tucson near the river. Talking about the flowing over the years, I’ve seen even pictures. There were boats and it was like, lush.
Tom Heath
It was I have a question.
H. Alan Day
Did it ever flow all the way to the Gila River? Because it goes out by Picaco and then just spreads out the desert and goes nowhere. Did it ever have a stream band?
Russel True
That’s why I was asking. Because I’ve seen pictures of, like, a steamboat on the Santa Cruz. And then they say that it goes underground north of Tucson between here and Gila.
H. Alan Day
Picacho Peak flowed all the way and it never did flow. That was my question.
Russel True
I’ve read that recently. Do you know?
Tom Heath
No. Once it gets out of downtown, I don’t know where it goes.
Tom Heath
I got 3 miles. After that, it goes wherever it’s going to go.
Russel True
Well, it’s one of those it’s an odd river, right? Because it starts in the San Raphael Valley of Arizona and then circles, does a horseshoe into mexico and then takes its ultimate northern. It’s one of the few northern flowing rivers and whatever’s there that makes it goes into the Gila, which makes it into the Colorado.
Tom Heath
Yeah.
H. Alan Day
If it ever flows ever again, you think we’ll ever see that?
Tom Heath
They try, but they try to get some water flowing through that. And there was an experiment with that. But I think the concern about leaking through to the groundwater into the it was going to be some environmental issues with that. So I don’t know that we’ll see that until they figure out better filtration systems. But they were pumping some reclaimed water into that to get it.
Russel True
They are. Now all that aino water goes into it and it flows continuously up here. Yeah. If you cross it either at a Dino or Cretero, there’s water in it and I think it makes it past marina.
Tom Heath
They try to do it from the southern part of Tucson. So to flow through Tucson and that’s where they were having issues with the impact, the environmental impact.
Russel True
Yeah. Well, your podcast, you mentioned you’re 250 or so and it turns into the book My Life Along the Streetcar, that’s available anywhere, amazon, et cetera.
Tom Heath
We don’t recommend Amazon simply because the size on Amazon is smaller than we originally intended. It’s designed to be a coffee table book. It’s available on our website, Lifelongthstreetcar.org.
H. Alan Day
A lot of photos.
Tom Heath
Lot of photos. Yeah, it’s nice in a few ways. It’s photos. There’s the really good content because there’s some transcriptions from the interviews. And then this was created sort of during that COVID era. So we got really fancy and put some QR codes in and now it’s sort of interactive. So if you like what you’re reading, you can QR code it and then go right and listen to the actual interview that we did with them.
Russel True
Oh, that’s really nice.
Tom Heath
We’re pretty fancy.
Russel True
So we’re looking at the Amazon version, which is condensed.
Tom Heath
Yeah, it’s the same information. It’s just laid out a little bit differently. And the font’s kind of small. Unfortunately, I mentioned earlier, no skill sets. Doing a book was something that was an experiment. It turned out really well with the version we printed. So we recommend you get that one, which is on our website, Lifelongthstreetcar.org. It’s also available in some bookstores around town and in the Tucson Gallery downtown.
H. Alan Day
Talk a little more about the Tucson Gallery.
Tom Heath
Well, that’s what happens, right? You start doing some research and then you start doing tours and then you get more involved within the history. And all of a sudden you run into a bunch of these artists and muralists and you realize how special Tucson is as an artist community. And you have a couple of business partners who are as crazy as you are and you’re like, hey, let’s open up a gallery. So we originally opened up a gallery to help some of the muralists who we found. Everyone in town was making money off of their murals except for them. So we said why don’t give them a safe place to do operate? And that was in about this time last year. We’re having these conversations and we opened in December and 2022 and now we represent 25 or more local artists. We’ve got sculptors and ceramic, we’ve got people that paint with oil and acrylic, we’ve got muralists photographers, a couple of authors. It’s just really been kind of an explosion and such a fun project. Tremendous amount of work. I
Tom Heath
wasn’t expecting like writing a book but the outpour support from the artist community has been wonderful. And we do Meet the Artist events so they come in and the public gets to meet them, which is just so fun. Our goal is accessibility. We want the art and the artist to be accessible. So we have a really robust website that tells their stories. We do a podcast with them called Meet the Artist. So it’s really just a great way to connect with Tucson artists. And that’s the Tucson Gallery.
Russel True
And where is it?
Tom Heath
That’s downtown, 300 East Congress. So right across from Hotel Congress, we’re inside of a retail collaborative called the Proper Shops which is a fun project with about 15 different independent retailers occupying an old restaurant space. And we’ve got a few spots in there, 300 East Congress. And more information on that is on our website, Tucsongallery.com.
Russel True
So we get the book Lifealongthestreetcard.org and we’ve got Tucsongallery.com and they can go there and see. Do you do newsletters? Can they sign up?
Tom Heath
Yeah, for the gallery. We do a monthly newsletter because we have a lot of events and we’re always bringing new artists, we’re always highlighting that newsletter for there is really good and then to make things accessible, we have a lot of the work available for reproduction because some of these artists, they have originals and that’s all that they offer. Once it’s sold, then you’re done. So through our website we’re able to offer it as a reproduction so you can get a little taste of that even if you don’t get the original.
Russel True
Perfect. So they can go to the website because we’re going to have a lot of Tucson listeners so they’re going to want to get down there for some of the Meet the Authors artists.
H. Alan Day
You do that a lot?
Tom Heath
Yeah, we typically do something every Friday. We’ll have a different either artist or event related event. We also have a courtyard in the back so we have music, all kinds of activities that happen in that space. So the newsletter is really the best way to stay in touch with that.
Russel True
Perfect. Well, on that we’ll say thank you.
Tom Heath
I appreciate the time, this has been wonderful. Thank you.
Russel True
Alan. We’re talking it’s kind of warmed up a little but it’s still, you know, they’re riding early and we had, I don’t know, 37 people out on the ride this morning we had, I don’t know, more than that for breakfast ride last week. We schedule for the temperatures and so white Stallion Ranch It’s the time to come if if that’s when you’re available for your vacation. And we’ve got a lot going on. It’s all the same stuff.
H. Alan Day
Well, you told me last week that this is your slow time, but it’s not slow.
Speaker 6
I guess that’s good.
Russel True
Well, it is, especially if you’re a guest. We’re busy this week and then it does taper off for July and August and still the families are coming. The international travel hasn’t quite returned, but it’s an affordable time to get the full 100% dude range experience. There’s really not much that I can think of that we don’t do in the summer that we do in height of the season. All the rides and activities go as usual. I think. We don’t do wine and cheese because the cheese melts or something, but other than that, we just kind of adjust timing wise and the whole thing goes well.
H. Alan Day
It’s been pretty good up till now, but today it’s scheduled to spike up to 110. But we’ve been pretty good up to.
Russel True
This point, really has been. And even today we’re going to do it all.
H. Alan Day
Yeah. Good.
Russel True
I think it’s often the transplants like Tom who come in and really appreciate a place and it’s the natives that complain. You and I yeah, and I’m I’m I classify myself as a native. So we we sit in wine and and the folks who come in are the ones who really appreciate the greatness of where they are. And in this case, it’s Tucson. But I’m excited about all these things. As you know, Reagan our five year old, and one of our concepts is get her out and educate her by experiences. And so we had the Mission Gardens on the list. We’ve been to Presidio and now we’re going to get to the gallery for some of these events. I’m excited.
H. Alan Day
Well, we’re lucky to live where we live and be able to participate.
Russel True
Absolutely.
Announcer
All right, friends, that’s a wrap from Tucson, Arizona. If you’re in the old Pueblo, take a ride on the streetcar. And no matter where you live, check out Tom Heath’s new book, My Life along the Streetcar. A shout out to Stan Houston and his production company. Next week, our conversation turns to agriculture and the innovations, challenges, joys and hopes of working the land. Until we meet again, I’m Lyn Weezy Snead reminding you to sit tall and ride safe.
